News

	SteveU Outstanding job, Rob! Really appreciate all of the time and care you put into this and that the NXN order of finish isn't the sole determinant. Also really appreciate the thorough responses you give to people who ask. 0·Like·Reply·Dec 12th 2013, 6:04pm

DontStopPre

Ahhh, knowing it was CdA's #1 makes it more understandable how CdA remained ranked so high. And you're right, NXR is an equal opportunity meet: your rankings can soar or plummet due to NXR performance. I guess a part of me dislikes that lol. While I love NXN, I suppose I am a purist and feel state championships are more important. '12 Central Valley was good enough to be a top 40 team who peaked at state in order to win state and had nothing left at NXR. '13 Kamiakin when on was special, like top 15 special if not better (East Regionals, State, Sunfair Inv) but had a bad NXR.

watchout

DontStopPre, on , said:

It was their #1 girl at their state meet, and I'd say their #2 for the season (she was their #1 all year, but at NXN-NW their top finisher had the best race for the team all year).

With the injured girl included as she ran at state, and the rest of the season? I'd say CdA wins probably 9 times out of 10. They had better front runners than Bellarmine Prep (most days they would probably have had 3 in before BP's #1) and had better depth than Camas (their #5 was better than Camas' #4). Even with their missing runner, they were neck and neck with Camas losing 167-179, and that's with their normal #6 scoring 76 points for them.

DontStopPre, on , said:

Regarding Kamiakin and Hale, I THINK you misunderstood me. I was saying I thought it was correct that they didn't drop very far. They are good teams that just didn't do enough to qualify out of a tough NW region. I TRULY believe had Kamiakin ran as well as they did at State they would've got 3rd at NW. I truly believe they are a top 15 team. BUT they ran "poor" at NXR.

Actually my point regarding teams from past years who dropped completely out of rankings after a good state but a bad NXR are examplified by '12 Hale and '12 Seattle Prep and '12 Central Valley. All 3 (if I remember right) ran very well at state but
very poor at NXR. All 3 dropped out of national rankings (Idk if you had rankings that deep, 40ish, or they were regional rankings ... but my point is that a poor NXR hurt them, but of course the circumstances weren't identical to '13 CDA.

Ah, yes, I did misunderstand (just saw the questions about CdA in the same paragraph as mentioning Kamiakin and Hale and replied as if you were asking "why did they move back a bit, while CdA didn't move back at all?") Lots of teams drop after poor NXR results, even after they run well at State. Of course, lots of teams rise in the rankings after good NXR results, too.

DontStopPre

Watchout, I appreciate your response regarding CDA. For the most par tthe response was what I expected ... I trust your numbers and your system and your work. Like ESPN says "Numbers Don't Lie". Still if I was Bellermine Prep or Camas and beat CDA at NXR yet was ranked below them in a ranking that weighs heavily to NXR I might be a bit irked. Which CDA girl was held out? Was it a top 3 girl? How many times would you say CDA beats
those 2 WA teams out of 10? Are those 3 teams
close or would CDA beat them 8 out of 10 times?

Regarding Kamiakin and Hale, I THINK you misunderstood me. I was saying I thought it was correct that they didn't drop very far. They are good teams that just didn't do enough to qualify out of a tough NW region. I TRULY believe had Kamiakin ran as well as they did at State they would've got 3rd at NW. I truly believe they are a top 15 team. BUT they ran "poor" at NXR.

Actually my point regarding teams from past years who dropped completely out of rankings after a good state but a bad NXR are examplified by '12 Hale and '12 Seattle Prep and '12 Central Valley. All 3 (if I remember right) ran very well at state but
very poor at NXR. All 3 dropped out of national rankings (Idk if you had rankings that deep, 40ish, or they were regional rankings ... but my point is that a poor NXR hurt them, but of course the circumstances weren't identical to '13 CDA.

watchout

DontStopPre, on , said:

How did Coeur d' Alene move up to 15th when they didn't even get to NXN (finished 4th at NXN NW)? Two of the teams that beat them at NXN NW finished ranked at 32nd and 38th. Bozeman did well at both NXN events and are just 4 spots better at 11th. CDA is a fine program but I thought the rankings were weighted to state, NXN regionals, and NXN (with each meet more important than
last). Through the years I have seen teams who win or race well at state get ranked only to fall out of rankings with mediocre or subpar NXN regional races. This year Kamiakin and Nathan Hale atleast remained in the rankings where (I believe) they belong (especially Kaniakin, more than Hale). But those 2 teams dropped (understandably) while
CDA actually moved up rankings despite missing NXN.

I assume the numbers will justify the rankings (ie an entire solid season isn't wiped out by a subpar NXN regional, which for the most part I agree with). However like I said I've seen poor NXN regional performances unrank teams in the past.

You might be forgetting that the last update to this was two weeks ago (before NXN-NE, NXN-NY, NXN-SE and the California State meet).

Coeur d'Alene moved up one spot, passing one team: Buchanan CA, who ran poorly (compared to previous races) at the California State meet.

Yes, the rankings are weighted towards State, NXR and NXN - but Coeur d'Alene (just like all the other teams) didn't get penalized for not qualifying for NXN, and didn't get penalized for holding out an injured runner at NXR since she ran at their State meet (just like Northville MI girls in the Midwest, as well as a few other cases).

As for the NW boys teams that didn't qualify... NW#3 Central Catholic finished 19th at NXN. Unless I had good reason to rank them ahead of teams they beat (and I didn't), that means they should be ranked behind 18 other teams that competed at NXN. The only team with a good reason for moving up beyond their NXN finish was Hinsdale Central (they had a runner - their #1 - involved in the pileup that had to drop out of the race - same line of reasoning for the Coe-Brown girls staying ahead of some teams that beat them at NXN, as they were without their #3). With Central Catholic's ceiling at #19 of the teams that were at NXN, that pushes all the non-qualifying NW teams back behind them - making them lose a few spots, although some of those spots they had lost the week before at the NXN-SE and NXN-NY meet.

Recap of teams that passed Nathan Hale and Kamiakin -

Teams that passed Nathan Hale:

Edina MN, who finished 10th at NXN
WC Henderson PA, who finished second at NXN-NE and 12th at NXN
Severna Park MD, who was second at NXN-SE and 13th at NXN
Southlake Carroll TX, who finished 14th at NXN
Wayzata MN, who finished 15th at NXN
Davis UT, who finished 17th at NXN

Teams that passed Kamiakin:

Edina MN, who finished 10th at NXN
WC Henderson PA, who finished second at NXN-NE and 12th at NXN
Severna Park MD, who was second at NXN-SE and 13th at NXN
Southlake Carroll TX, who finished 14th at NXN
Wayzata MN, who finished 15th at NXN
Davis UT, who finished 17th at NXN
St. Anthony's NY, who finished fourth at NXN-NY
Ridgefield CT, who finished third at NXN-NE
Midlothian VA, who finished fourth at NXN-SE

DontStopPre

History for RunnerSpace.com/HighSchool

Year	Videos	News	Photos	Blogs
2024	2	14
2023	10	40
2022	7	51
2021	12	33
2020	8	48
2019	1	633
2018	11	2088	78
2017		3083
2016	95	4823	12
2015	5031	12164	23595	21
2014	3920	12406	8059	11
2013	5923	11086	9910	7
2012	3653	6559	12968	1
2011	1240	1320	2430	8
2010	1752	1131	1462	3
2009	575	684	1683	36
2008	65	151	101	51
2007	1	17
2006		12
2005		8
2004		9
2003	32	8
2002		8
2001	210	9
2000	533	13
1999		2
1994	1
1991	1
1984	1
1983	1
1982	1
1972	1
1971	1
1970	1
1969	1
1965	1
1962	1
1954	1

Show 35 more

Hashtags

News

Folders

National Team Rankings - 12/11 Girls Final - 2013 XC - DyeStat

More news